Calling America -"so many investors"

00:00:00: Hey, Robert hier. Dieser Podcast wird euch präsentiert von der Hannover Messe. Wir sagen

00:00:05: vielen herzlichen Dank an die Kollegen in Hannover. Wir danken euch auch für die coolen

00:00:09: Tage in Hannover mit viel Robotik, Automation und KI. Es hat sich wieder einmal gelohnt.

00:00:16: Und jetzt geht's los mit dem Podcast.

00:00:18: Robotik in der Industrie. Der Podcast mit Helmut Schmidt und Robert Weber.

00:00:27: Hallo liebe Zuhörer und Zuhörer. Willkommen zu einer neuen Folge unseres Podcastes Robotik in

00:00:34: der Industrie. Mein Name ist Robert Weber und München sitzt. Helmut Schmidt für euch.

00:00:37: Helmut, bevor wir gleich rüber gehen zu unserem US-Korrespondenten und mit dem bisschen Robotik

00:00:43: erstes Service sprechen und was er auf der Automate gesehen hat, lasst uns einen ganz

00:00:47: kurzen aktuellen Teil machen. Du warst auf der Hannover Messe. Wie hat es dir gefallen?

00:00:51: Genau. Ich bin auf der Hannover Messe gewesen. Ich war erstmal positiv beeindruckt dahingehend.

00:00:59: Das ist besonders gleich am ersten Tag am Montag, der eher Verhalten gestartet. Gleich wirklich

00:01:06: ziemlich viel Besuch war. Ich bin einmal mit dem Wirtschaft Robotikverband aus dem

00:01:13: Application Park und einmal mit INNO Robotics vor Ort gewesen. Und das muss ich sagen, war

00:01:18: durchgehend positiv. Der komplette application, Robotik application park war positiv. Es waren

00:01:25: offene Stände, gute Firmen, gute Startups, gute Stimmung, offenes Miteinander. Das hat mir gut

00:01:32: gefallen. Auch die Gespräche waren positiv. Die Stimmungslage war gut. Was ich fragezeichen

00:01:39: in den Sichtblickställen ist, aus Robotik und Automatisierungssicht ist, es haben viele Große

00:01:46: tatsächlich gefehlt und das in einem nicht automatischen Jahr. Viele Asiaten sind präsent

00:01:54: gewesen. Ich würde jetzt losfolgern, ein bisschen leichtfertig den Platz überlassen. Das habe

00:02:01: ich tatsächlich erstaunt. Ansonsten war es wirklich gute Stimmung, gute Gespräche.

00:02:06: 3800 Euro, Kobot, gab es auch. Der hat mir auch zu denken gegeben.

00:02:11: Absolut. Das ist eine Ansage und das war jetzt kein Low-Cost Plastic oder Kunststoffroboter, ohne

00:02:18: jetzt hier zu nahe zu treten, sondern ein tatsächlich vollwertiger Industriekobot. Am Ende der Messe

00:02:25: hätte man wahrscheinlich für 2500 zu kommen, mit nach Hause in die Welt können.

00:02:28: Ja, genau. Ich habe mich gefragt.

00:02:29: Ja, genau, du hast gefragt. Also das ist eine tatsächlichige Ansage. Es sind andere,

00:02:34: Koreaner, Asiaten, Chinesen, Taiwanesen, sind vor Ort gewesen. Es gab auch einige, die auch modulare

00:02:46: Roboter gezeigt haben. Also den Backhof und Robco gibt es andere, der in einem ähnlichen Konzept

00:02:52: arbeiten, aber eben anders im Ausland. Und das habe ich erstaunt. Es tut sich nachgefahren,

00:02:56: sind nicht viele in dem Robotik und Kobotsbereich und das beggen positive Stimmung.

00:03:02: Wir hatten ja auch zur Eröffnung die Delta Story mit ihren Delta Kobots. Da war auch richtig Musik

00:03:08: da am Stand in dem Delta Stand. Riesiger Stand, ich glaube Halle 11. Also aus dem Asiatischen Bereich

00:03:14: war da richtig Musik da. Ja, eben wirklich war es da. Und wie du sagst, wird Delta vorgestellt aus

00:03:22: einer Hand eine komplette Familie, sofort verfügbar und nicht nur technologisch verfügbar,

00:03:28: sondern auch lieferbar, produziert und entwickelt in Deutschland, in Europa. Das zeigt natürlich schon,

00:03:35: dass die anderen Hersteller, für die die Hannover Messe noch wichtig ist, sich an den Footblängen

00:03:40: zogen, um sich zu positionieren. Also das war durchaus positiv. Und gerade die Stimmung auf dem

00:03:46: Application Park hat das Team auch gut gemacht. Das war wirklich gut. Ich fand es richtig gut,

00:03:50: auch mit der Bar und so mit den kostenlosen Getränken und so. Das war einfach gut gelöst.

00:03:54: Und wir haben mal mit dem Philip Becker von Vision Laser Technik gesprochen. Der war nämlich auch

00:03:59: der Messe. Das spiele ich jetzt mal ganz kurz ein. Was habt ihr auf der Hannover Messe 2024 gezeigt?

00:04:04: Ja, mein Name ist Philip Becker. Ich bin von Vision Laser Technik hier vertreten mit Vision Robotik.

00:04:10: Und wir sind erstmalig auf dem Application Park dieses Jahr auf der Hannover Messe und wir haben

00:04:14: hier eine echte Neuheit mitgebracht. Nämlich das erste Mal, dass ein Laserschweißsystem gekoppelt

00:04:19: oder geführt von einem Cobot, von einem Leichtbauroboter auch für kleine und mittlere Serien

00:04:25: Schweißaufgaben übernehmen können. Was ist der USP im Vergleich zum Marktanwendung?

00:04:29: Ja, wir sind Maschinenbau-Au. Und bisher haben wir entweder komplett manuelle oder automatische

00:04:33: Schweißsysteme produziert. Wir haben aber immer mehr das Problem, dass unsere Kunden sagen, ja,

00:04:38: ich brauche diese Anlagen, aber ich finde keine Schweißer mehr. Liefert mir eine Anlage und

00:04:41: liefert mir die Schweißer. Und jetzt haben wir eine Möglichkeit gefunden, wie wir jedem auch

00:04:45: an Gelernten die Möglichkeit geben können, Schweißaufgaben komplett automatisiert, mit Hilfe

00:04:51: vom Maschinenlehren, mit gut hinterlegten Programmen und eben mit Leichtbau-Robotik,

00:04:55: das für alle zugänglich zu machen. Und ist das ein Nachrüst-Set oder ist das eine komplette

00:05:00: Zelle? Wie kann ich mir das vorstellen? Das ist eine komplette Zelle. Die gibt es in verschiedenen

00:05:04: Größen, je nach Bauteilgröße, die gibt es sowohl als offenes Lasersystem, aber auch als

00:05:07: geschlossenes Lasersystem. Und es ist für den Kunden eine Neuanschaffung, allerdings wird ein

00:05:12: sehr schnellen Return on Invest, weil ich kann mir den Arbeitnehmer sparen. Was hältst du vom

00:05:17: Application-Pack? Wie ist so dein Fazit nach jetzt einer Woche an Ofermesse? Der Application-Pack

00:05:22: ist toll. Wir haben jetzt die Möglichkeit, dass wir hier nicht nur Komponenten ausstellen,

00:05:25: sondern auch ganze Applikationen zeigen können. Und das ist für uns als Ausstellender natürlich

00:05:29: toll, weil wir den Kunden wirklich zeigen können, was unsere Maschinen und Anlagen machen, aber eben

00:05:33: auch für die Besucher hervorragend, weil sie auch die richtige Anwendung schon erleben können. Messe heißt

00:05:38: immer Leads gezählt, gut oder schlecht? Wir sind im Investitionsbereich. Das heißt, wir sehen die

00:05:44: qualifizierten und guten Leads immer erst ein bisschen später, aber wir haben jetzt schon nach den

00:05:49: ersten Tagen gesehen, dass das wirklich auf dem Application-Pack ein wirklicher Gewinnenbringer

00:05:53: ist, weil wir Leute haben, die wirklich klaren Applikationswünschen zu uns kommen. Dank dir.

00:05:58: Dankeschön. So, und jetzt gehen wir von der Hanover-Messe. Im Hauptteil gehen wir in die

00:06:04: USA zur Automate. Da hatten wir auch in TwinZig mit DeepMind Dosen, stellt neuer Geschichten vor.

00:06:10: Viele amerikanische Unternehmen, die auch was zeigen, auch Unternehmen, die uns so, wo wir gar

00:06:15: nicht wussten, ob die schon Roboter haben oder nicht. Aber das Du hat gesagt, dass da vor allem

00:06:20: Investoren viele auf der Messe waren und sich umgeschaut haben. Das hat mich dann schon überrascht.

00:06:24: Investoren. Ja, das ist erstaunlich. Auf der anderen Seite, es ging ja kürzlich über den

00:06:31: Ether Collaborative Robotics aus den USA und die 100 Millionen Euro gerast haben. Und das zeigt,

00:06:38: dass die Stimmungslage und wahrscheinlich genau deswegen die Investoren Aufsuche sind im amerikanischen

00:06:44: Markt. Was gibt's an neuen Firmen? Was gibt's an neuen Technologien, wo das Geld platziert werden kann,

00:06:50: wo sich tatsächlich unsere europäischen und deutschen Firmen noch relativ schwer tun?

00:06:55: Aber das fand ich spannend, weil wenn ihr gleich hört im Hauptteil, wenn ich dann höre, wie konservativ

00:07:02: dann aber die US-Unternehmen sind, also Robotics as a Service ist... Auf die wir nicht zusammen...

00:07:07: Null kein Thema bei den Kunden. So auf der einen Seite die Finanzwelt und auf der anderen Seite die

00:07:15: konservativen Anwender, die vielleicht noch konservativer sind als unsere in Europa. Das fand

00:07:21: ich schon krass. Es ist super interessant vor allem, weil die Investoren setzen ja auf recurring

00:07:28: revenue, setzen auf Robotics as a Service und jetzt hört man genau, dass es ein Thema, was

00:07:33: unbedingt gut läuft, weil der Markt vielleicht doch ein bisschen konservativer ist. Entweder haben die

00:07:38: Investoren etwas mehr Wut oder glauben ihr an das Thema, dass es kommen wird? Aber da passt das

00:07:45: eine mit dem anderen nicht zu 100 Prozent zusammen. Aber für die Stimmungslage ist es gut und die

00:07:49: positive Stimmung der Investorenseite wäre für deutsche Startups, RISCID, C-R-S-E super wichtig,

00:07:57: dass das hier rüber schwappt, damit wir da ähnliche Tickets sein können.

00:08:01: So und jetzt gehen wir in den Hauptteil zum Stu.

00:08:03: Willkommen in Stu in den USA. Willkommen in den Podcasts, unser USA-Korrespondent.

00:08:09: Thank you very much. It's good to be here.

00:08:12: Stu, bevor wir ins Main-Party starten,

00:08:15: talking about Automate, who or what surprised you most at the trade fair?

00:08:21: Well, it was a significant growth over the previous year. I think they said that they had

00:08:27: estimated it was more than a 30 percent increase in attendance. It was more than 40,000. I heard a

00:08:34: number around 44, but I don't know what the official figures were, but 44,000 people was a

00:08:39: significant increase over the previous year. And of course the trade show was significantly

00:08:45: larger, as far as the total number of exhibitors. The show was moved from Detroit to Chicago in

00:08:52: the Kormik Place, and we had the entire South Hall. And it was full. It was very busy. People were

00:08:58: excited and talking about their automation projects. And I think the thing that surprised me the most

00:09:05: was the number of investors that were on the floor looking to make connections to either acquire

00:09:11: Companies or investigate the space to see if it was safe to invest and other things like that.

00:09:17: And it was an amazing show. It was by far the best automation show I've been at in a very,

00:09:23: very long time. Very interesting, because we just saw the latest IFR numbers published for 2023,

00:09:32: which showed an increase in the United States, about I think plus 12 percent, 45,000 robots

00:09:38: installed. Is this more or less the positive attitude you were just talking was shown at the

00:09:44: ultimate that the drive to spirit is back to the market or back to robotics? Yeah, so I think there's

00:09:50: three things at work here. One is there was a reported downturn in order intake in the fourth

00:09:56: quarter of last year and the first quarter of this year. I think that was a momentary pause as

00:10:02: people tried to get the equipment they'd purchased, installed, and up and running. And some people

00:10:08: had overpurchased during COVID and things were resetting a bit. But I think that the demand is

00:10:14: very strong and people's plans have moved forward, even with some of the changes in the ED market.

00:10:20: That's kind of settling out finally. But I think the biggest thing is automation is now considered

00:10:25: to be acceptable. In the past, a lot of people said, oh, don't throw robots in, you'll create

00:10:31: unemployment. Well, we now have proof that that's not the case. And also we have proof that there's

00:10:36: not enough employees available to fill the total number of jobs that are out there. And also

00:10:42: the automation is available, is easier to use and easier to deploy and easier to install and use

00:10:50: than it's ever been before. And I think that's bringing new people into the market that'll continue

00:10:55: to drive market growth. From a technological perspective, what convinced you? Well, I don't

00:11:02: know if I'm the one to be convinced. I've been a long-term advocate of automation. But

00:11:07: what I'm hearing from customers is that they are seeing evidence of robots going into companies

00:11:15: that look like theirs. And they feel like there's less risk. There's lots of articles published about

00:11:22: ease of use and deployment. But I think the biggest thing that's holding people back is the perceived

00:11:29: Economics of automation and the risk of just a disruption of starting it up. Starting automation

00:11:37: up in their plant in general. Are they ready themselves for automation? And I think that's an

00:11:42: area where it would be good for all of us as an industry to speak. Because even with the Economics

00:11:49: in the US being as strong as they are right now, the return on investment in properly deployed

00:11:55: automation is far greater than what you can get in the stock market today. You mentioned your

00:12:01: customers. Which industry? What kind of people are they and what they are looking for? So it's pretty

00:12:08: widespread. The thing that's great about automation today is it's moved far past the automotive and

00:12:16: automotive component area that it has in the past. It's also moved past large companies. And

00:12:22: certainly large companies are still deploying robots. But I think the big thing is that small

00:12:28: to mid-sized companies of all types are reaching in and starting to see the benefits of automation.

00:12:33: Even small machine shops or fabricators, small manufacturers, co-packing firms and others.

00:12:40: Not just to big warehouses, not just to big manufacturers.

00:12:44: Can you share with us how the agents and Europeans did at the trade fair show?

00:12:53: So, it was interesting. This was probably the largest concentration of people that have

00:12:58: participated in the show from Asia from an exhibitors perspective. There are many new

00:13:04: Chinese players that have come into the market with mostly co-bots and AMRs, which is what we

00:13:10: saw here at the show. Also, there was a couple of new European based robot manufacturers,

00:13:17: co-bot manufacturers and AMRs that came into the North American market. I think in the past

00:13:22: this was somewhat constrained because we were dealing with COVID and then the massive shipping

00:13:27: delays. Some of these exhibits require land-sea containers. And this time last year we were

00:13:32: still in the middle of the crisis of shipping and issues of getting ships unloaded and

00:13:39: transportation taken care of. So this year all of that was resolved, certainly. And there was a

00:13:45: significant increase for sure from Asia, all over Asia, not just China, but throughout

00:13:52: the Asia-Pacific market. And there were a couple new players from Germany and then a reinforcement

00:13:58: of a number of companies that had come here already, but it was clear that they were better

00:14:02: established and finally ready to do business in North America. Very cool. One question on my side,

00:14:11: because you also said, what you surprised most is you saw many investment companies, we just saw

00:14:19: some big investments in the United States, in US companies, in humanoids, but also in a company

00:14:27: called co-bots. Were humanoids present? I mean in the press they are all present, but

00:14:33: have they been present at their automat as well? Or did anyone show the humanoids?

00:14:39: Yeah, there were some. I mean the show is largely an industrial show and there's a lot of people with

00:14:45: humanoid intentions that I'm not sure this is the right show for them. I mean they could be here.

00:14:51: But the humanoid presence was limited, but also the market at this point is still limited. It's still

00:14:59: I think we're a few years away from seeing humanoids being effectively deployed.

00:15:04: The business use cases are still a little bit limited at this point and also the availability

00:15:11: and support of the technology is a little bit limited. But I think it's something that will emerge

00:15:15: over time. Some people believe it's as close as five years. I think it's a little bit further than

00:15:21: that for humanoids. Okay, so humanoids was a topic, but was was the when you talk to your

00:15:28: customers, when you talk to the ex-abiturs, what was the let's say the top three topics at the

00:15:35: trade fair show? The top three topics were one was clearly the availability of manpower. That was

00:15:42: causing people to look at automation who perhaps have never looked at automation before. So that was

00:15:47: clearly the number one topic. The number two topic probably was related to how well supported

00:15:55: some of these companies really are. You know there's some interest in some startup companies

00:16:01: and some younger companies. The question is, are they ready to really support large deployments?

00:16:07: Are they reliable, you mean? Yeah, reliable from a supplier perspective. Yeah, exactly. And then

00:16:12: also there was a lot of discussion around just the economics of the whole thing. You know, most

00:16:18: technical discussions eventually wind up with a business use case. And there are still

00:16:25: many applications that the business use case is just not there yet. But there's also many

00:16:31: customers that are trying to figure out, have they been evaluating the business use cases correctly?

00:16:36: Because certainly the unemployment situation is not going to get any better in the foreseeable future.

00:16:41: And you know, how and when do you start? And the discussions I try to lead is, you know, start

00:16:49: with a reasonable amount of automation. Don't go crazy and try to do the whole plant, but at least

00:16:54: do a starter job. And someone go from a crawl to a walk to a run rather than jumping straight to

00:17:01: a sprint when it comes to deployment. But I think that's very interesting. The topic to be a reliable

00:17:07: supplier for US customers. How difficult is that for the startup companies in the US and Europe, Asia?

00:17:15: Well, the challenge is that a lot of startup companies start in a single location. So even

00:17:21: that initial location can be a problem. Because if you're on the East Coast or the West Coast

00:17:27: in the United States, you've got several time zones. And then likewise, just the travel logistics

00:17:33: within the United States is somewhat challenging. So a lot of European companies and some Asian

00:17:40: companies forget about their geography lessons about the relative size of not only the US, but

00:17:47: also Canada and Mexico. Because the economies of Canada and Mexico are very closely coupled to the

00:17:54: US, as are some of the manufacturers. And in the end, customers will buy from Fano Kuka or UR again.

00:18:01: Or are they impressed by the technology? Okay, I like it. But at the end, I will buy from the

00:18:08: manufacturers I know, I trust. Well, yes, there's certainly, you know, preference in a lot of cases

00:18:16: for the installed base, but are the existing well developed companies like the FANIX and

00:18:21: Yaskawa isn't ABBs. And even you are is finally pretty well deployed here in the States. But they

00:18:28: are willing to take on risk again, if the economic model is there to justify taking such a risk.

00:18:35: And if the company that's there is able to actually support the equipment effectively.

00:18:39: Because sometimes first movers can get an advantage, you might be able to get some

00:18:45: lower cost early deployment type stuff to assist in development.

00:18:49: But the companies that are risk adverse, that want the equipment to run immediately,

00:18:55: are more likely to go with an established company or at least established integrators

00:19:00: that are trusted, that may be using some new technology. But they trust the integrators not

00:19:06: to let them fall down. But what is an advantage that you see, what can you use to set yourself apart

00:19:14: in the USA? As far as being an OEM manufacturer. Yes. Yeah, so the way to set yourself apart is

00:19:23: one validate that the equipment you have and what you're providing works. And then have a assigned

00:19:30: team that's committed to working with the end customer to not only launch the product, but

00:19:35: sustain the product longer term after the initial launch point. Because a lot of times startup

00:19:41: companies will get across the finish line of shipping a piece of equipment, take a deep breath

00:19:47: and then move on to the next job and forget about the customer that they deployed the first job

00:19:52: and maybe not take care of them as well. So that's a large part of it. But the other thing is

00:19:57: it really starts with preparation. The idea of training as an example has changed dramatically

00:20:05: with the acceptance of online training in recent years, kind of driven by COVID.

00:20:10: And most users today don't use manuals and won't even really look at online tech help.

00:20:18: So a strong presence in YouTube or Instagram or other things where you've got short lessons

00:20:25: that are video enabled and other technologies available, online diagnostics and other

00:20:32: tools to allow the customer to help themselves is super important, especially for a young company.

00:20:40: Because you just can't afford to wait for a technician to come from the other side of the country.

00:20:44: Flight delays with weather, we're having terrible weather in the United States these days.

00:20:49: So the delay of getting people to the site is just not acceptable. So a new company

00:20:55: needs to look at how can they efficiently demonstrate their equipment online and

00:21:01: support their equipment online to the extent possible because that's what even

00:21:05: the best in class companies are doing today.

00:21:08: Helmut?

00:21:09: What I saw, what I thought Stu is, many startups or new market leader or market

00:21:17: players try to build up a dealer network first. I mean I go to the United States

00:21:24: or I'm even a United States startup. What I don't have normally is a sales force

00:21:30: and don't have technicians. I maybe have a small backup but I have what I like to

00:21:35: build up a dealer network who is already established to cover all the open

00:21:40: questions you just mentioned. But now I understood okay the dealer network or a

00:21:45: possible new dealer network is only one part to solve the problem. It's even more

00:21:52: important that the startup itself is present.

00:21:55: In a lot of cases startups have not done a very good job of supporting their

00:21:59: distribution network which makes customers very unhappy.

00:22:03: Okay.

00:22:04: Distributors very unhappy in fact as well because they're frustrated and they

00:22:09: don't have time to deal with all the OEMs issues. You know important thing to

00:22:15: remember about a lot of distributors is to have a very broad line card so their

00:22:20: resources are diluted across a large number of different products and the

00:22:24: products that are most interesting if they don't have support wind up being

00:22:30: very problematic and it's impossible for a distributor to be an expert at

00:22:34: everything especially a brand new OEMs product and even more so if that brand

00:22:41: new OEMs products not well supported.

00:22:43: So I want to come back to your customers because they are now home again in

00:22:49: their factory in their production plants and now they have to ask

00:22:55: theirself what should I buy now which solution will actually be sold in the

00:23:00: USA what kind of solutions.

00:23:02: Well there's certainly all types of solutions but the first stop when they

00:23:07: get back home needs to review their budget and understand what they're

00:23:11: looking at.

00:23:12: How big is their budget in the USA?

00:23:14: Well it's millions and millions of dollars for sure but at an individual

00:23:18: company it may be anywhere from zero to you know a million or more because the

00:23:24: issue is a lot of companies may not have planned for automation and they have to

00:23:28: kind of reboot their budget and this is midpoint almost the midpoint of the

00:23:32: year so depending on what their fiscal year is they may or may not have money

00:23:37: in their fiscal budget this year but they need to plan for money into their

00:23:41: budget for next year or get funding from their private equity owners or get

00:23:46: funding from whoever they're trying to get funding from and then some

00:23:51: companies have to just work on the fundamentals just funding period they

00:23:54: may not have the resources they believe to get out there and actually invest

00:23:59: in automation.

00:24:00: The truth is in a lot of cases when it comes to investment again if they

00:24:04: start small they're probably burning more cash and they realize and if they can

00:24:09: divert that cash that they're burning into useful automation that's again a

00:24:13: small digestive chunk then they may be able to actually make deployments this

00:24:19: year.

00:24:20: I wasn't have a short question if I'm the customer because you also mentioned

00:24:24: a interesting topic on the automates is that okay there were a lot of new

00:24:30: market players but also a lot of mobile robotics HBs and AMRs do you see a

00:24:37: shift I mean not a shift from buying either a mobile robots or buying a

00:24:42: stationary robot but a shift in let's say the gross rate maybe is higher on

00:24:48: mobile robots because maybe they just get in place or how you see this because

00:24:53: this is what surprised me when I said okay there are many HBs and mobile

00:24:57: robot manufacturers at the automate as well which would indicate also the

00:25:01: market for mobile robots is growing or at least have the same potential gross

00:25:07: potential.

00:25:08: Who should buy all these AMRs?

00:25:10: Yeah so one of the reasons why there's so many AMRs frankly is pretty easy to

00:25:15: build and the technology to create an AMR is much more available than it's ever

00:25:19: been before.

00:25:20: Our guidance systems are less of an issue and battery life and battery

00:25:24: availability is better so AMRs are pretty easy to create.

00:25:29: There's also a very wide range of AMRs everything from very simple carts to

00:25:35: full-blown AMRs or even automated fork trucks.

00:25:40: All of these technologies have been driven forward very quickly by the large

00:25:44: warehouse players and the large warehouse players are buying you know maybe

00:25:49: hundreds of these things but even small companies can buy one or two and

00:25:54: they're starting to experiment and there's again certainly lots of companies

00:25:58: that are out there.

00:25:59: I believe there'll be a consolidation in some of those companies and

00:26:03: submerges and acquisitions in that area because I don't believe that any one AMR

00:26:11: is a real breakout per se at this particular point and there's you know

00:26:15: interesting challenges because it's not just the AMR technology but if you're

00:26:20: running a warehouse it's how do you integrate it to your warehouse management

00:26:23: systems but in a small manufacturer if you're only using one or two AMRs you

00:26:28: don't have to worry about a warehouse manufacturer or warehouse management

00:26:32: system sometimes you just program the unit by walking it to its point of

00:26:38: destination and telling it to return and programming in a handful of different

00:26:42: simple routes.

00:26:45: So like anything else AMRs will increase in use as the ease of use continues to

00:26:52: improve and the cost effectiveness comes in and people start to understand how

00:26:57: much time is wasted in intercompany or inter-facility plant material handling

00:27:04: and even AMRs are starting to show up in the truck lots for moving trailers

00:27:09: outside of the shipping dock area in the actual truck yard.

00:27:15: We're starting to see some deployments in that area and I think that's another

00:27:18: exciting area if they can figure out how to manage the weather.

00:27:22: Are there financial incentives in the USA to invest in robotics?

00:27:28: Not really not in robotics specifically I mean you really have to go

00:27:34: out alone to make sure the financial part makes sense but there are some

00:27:38: capital equipment investment deductions that are available through the

00:27:45: Internal Revenue Service IRS as it's known there's an item called section 179

00:27:52: which is a tax credit that's associated with the deductions of CAPEX type

00:27:58: equipment and that is used well by companies to understand how to use it

00:28:03: and follow the rules of how do you take advantage of that and there's some

00:28:08: limited funding available but the most the funding in the US that's robotics

00:28:12: or automation related is in the education market frequently referred to as STEM or

00:28:19: science technology engineering and math and the STEM related activities and

00:28:24: investments are significant and there's lots of robots being deployed at

00:28:28: universities and trade schools and high schools and even elementary schools

00:28:32: trying to build up the knowledge of the available and interested students to

00:28:38: make them more employable when they come out and hopefully to drive interest in

00:28:42: in automation so that's where the big investments from the government are

00:28:47: going at the moment aside from research into you know things like the DARPA type

00:28:53: activities and even even those are starting to wane because a lot of the

00:28:58: DARPA projects are actually turning into reality with self-driving vehicles and

00:29:03: other types of mobility is starting to show up. Let's look a little bit at the

00:29:09: end into the future what are your customers concerned about in the next

00:29:13: months maybe? Some of them are concerned about the presidential election that's

00:29:19: coming up. Is it so important for the for the automation market? Yeah well it's a

00:29:23: fun discussion because a lot of people hold off on investments until they see

00:29:28: is it a Republican or Democrat that gets into the White House but studies going

00:29:32: clear back to 1955 have proven that there's been no change of investment in

00:29:38: gross domestic product or automation or anything else like that related to one

00:29:45: group in the White House or the other. The only exception might be in electric

00:29:49: vehicles there's one that's leaning harder towards EVs than the other but in

00:29:53: general the automation market is agnostic of political parties so the biggest

00:29:59: issue is the availability of finances and can people find the money and make the

00:30:05: financial justification because so much of the discussion at trade shows and by

00:30:11: sales people are around the technology and not around the economics and I

00:30:16: think there needs to be a fundamental shift in how companies talk about their

00:30:21: products and how companies talk about selling their automation to truly

00:30:26: understand it really has to be a financial business use case and the best

00:30:31: use case the best financial result is what should win the project but right

00:30:38: now everybody's just battling over you know cool technology or basic throughput

00:30:43: or basic installation costs. And will we see new financial instruments by US

00:30:51: robotics companies or what is your your proposed? Well I don't propose anything

00:30:58: in that regard but there's already financial instruments that are out there

00:31:02: so the robot companies in some cases will refer to a company to a leasing

00:31:07: organization and there's some automation integrators and others that are trying

00:31:12: to offer robots as a service and robots as a service may work in other

00:31:18: countries but with the way the tax code and other things work in the United

00:31:23: States it's not been very popular there's lots of people trying it trying to

00:31:27: treat automation like a fork truck or other types of vehicles that you can

00:31:32: lease but the leasing model is different because there's so much non-reoccurring

00:31:36: engineering and also installation and de-installation costs that creep into the

00:31:43: robot as a service model or into the leasing model because all that cost of

00:31:48: installation or de-installation if you take it out and all the non-reoccurring

00:31:52: engineering has to be borne by that specific project where if you're leasing

00:31:57: a fork truck or other type of standard vehicle you know you can bring it on a

00:32:02: flatbed truck push it off and leave it there for you know however long the

00:32:06: lease period is and pick it up at the end of the lease period and take it out so I

00:32:10: don't know if robot as a service is ever going to be financially popular

00:32:14: because the other issue is most chief financial officers or finance people in

00:32:19: general do not like reoccurring monthly charges for items that depreciate over

00:32:26: time and also for items that have a not only a depreciation but an obsolescence

00:32:31: rate but was that a topic at the at the automate new financial instruments like

00:32:36: a robot as a service or no it's it's always been a topic there's been a lot

00:32:41: of companies trying to use that as their differential is there a way to attract

00:32:45: people in and then also with the private equities there they all are interested

00:32:49: in robots as a service because if they're if their company can figure out the

00:32:53: reoccurring revenue market and not be lumpy as they say with order intake

00:32:59: being all over the place but a steady stream of growth and can get some kind

00:33:03: of a subscription model going it's very popular because from a financial risk

00:33:08: perspective for the owners it reduces their risk but it's just not really in

00:33:13: the last 15 years of those models have been around those models have not been

00:33:19: largely successful that's that's surprising because we thought that it

00:33:25: would work first in the USA to do a robot as a service absolutely and first

00:33:31: let's say mainly startup driven we're trying to get the fundraising on a

00:33:36: robotic as a service but it seems not to take off as easily as it was as you

00:33:43: looked at this looks so I mean it makes great financial sense for the academics

00:33:48: but in practice doesn't work out so well and then the other thing is is that a

00:33:54: lot of these companies are trying to offer robots as a service may not

00:33:57: necessarily be the long-stable companies and companies are afraid if they you

00:34:02: know choose robots as a service what happens if that company collapses you

00:34:08: know in my past life and some companies I worked with with some major software

00:34:12: installations and robot installations we actually had to put the software

00:34:18: packages into a safe location for the customer and having a crew and everything

00:34:23: set up around it for long-term sustainability and if a company is

00:34:28: young and does not look stable then the idea of marrying yourself to that

00:34:33: company worries companies because what happens if that company doesn't make it

00:34:38: in fact collapses then you're you're out there on your own with a piece of

00:34:42: equipment that's not serviceable in your plan Stu are you as companies much

00:34:48: more conservative than we think in Europe so yes and no there's a couple

00:34:55: things that dry is a very interesting question actually I think that the cost

00:35:01: of doing business in Europe are higher so I think the Europeans are a little

00:35:06: bit more aggressive in deploying automation and certainly we've seen high

00:35:11: aggression of deployment in in China so I think yes the US consumers are a

00:35:18: little bit more conservative but I think the other thing that factors into all of

00:35:23: that is is that the pricing that companies come to the US with typically is

00:35:30: higher than the rest of the world and on a robot by robot basis you know it's not

00:35:36: uncommon that you can buy robots cheaper in China or Europe than what you can buy

00:35:40: in the US and I wonder if companies have gotten a little bit too greedy with the

00:35:45: price of some of this automation to make it work but the price of the robot is

00:35:50: less of a factor when you total into factor cost of automation because

00:35:54: customers look at the total price not just the individual robot prices but

00:35:59: for sure the the robot name our prices if they're high here will continue to

00:36:04: escalate the noise so you know foreign companies are coming into the US right

00:36:09: now offering lower price solutions trying to differentiate themselves from

00:36:13: the established groups but again that that presents risk because do they have

00:36:17: enough money to you know create the support that's necessary to keep their

00:36:21: equipment running in North America.

00:36:23: Hamoud last question to you.

00:36:24: Yeah one one question for for my side because you said technology, usability,

00:36:30: training, education is important then of course the financing and financial

00:36:35: model is important. What's about as final because this is always a problem or

00:36:41: sometimes a problem in Germany it's about regulations risk analysis

00:36:46: certification and you just mentioned maybe the United States is also a little

00:36:50: bit conservative. Is the regulations or the ANSI the ISO certification is this a

00:36:57: topic or a showstopper or a problem or just it's part they need to be solved?

00:37:04: Well so this year you'll actually see a harmonization in a lot of the standards

00:37:10: between Europe and the US so it'll be less of a discussion point going forward.

00:37:15: The ISO 10218 is being broadly adopted they're going through voting now and

00:37:22: they'll be voting in the US on adopting that into the RA 1506 so the standards

00:37:27: and the risks and those kinds of things are similar. The OSHA safety regulations

00:37:32: and other things like that are very similar so most customers assume that

00:37:39: either the manufacturer or the integrator know what they're doing which is a

00:37:44: risky assumption I might add. A lot of companies kind of ignore it until they

00:37:48: get to their plant and they realize they may have a problem so the thing that's

00:37:54: kind of interesting about the whole safety thing is if you do a risk

00:37:57: assessment early in the process at the very beginning of the project even

00:38:02: before you do a quotation to the marketplace you can identify what the

00:38:06: risks are and if you do it well it actually reduces the total cost of the

00:38:10: system because eliminates a lot of the contingencies or helps you eliminate

00:38:14: some of the things that could have been risks and you would buy them differently

00:38:17: and plan differently knowing what the risks are but with a lot of the pre-

00:38:22: engineered cells that are coming out from the from the integrators and even

00:38:27: robot manufacturers a lot of those safety and risk issues are now more resolved

00:38:33: in advance because they've planned it into their standard offering you know

00:38:38: it used to be people didn't think you could weld with a cobot well you can

00:38:42: and and you can do it well but you have to use it correctly and you have to buy

00:38:46: it from an integrator that paid attention to the safety standards and

00:38:50: made sure that the robotic system was made compliant with the the current

00:38:56: safety standards so I think robot companies and robot integrators have

00:39:01: gotten better at it and users are more aware of it but also they kind of

00:39:06: assume that it comes even though it may not with the system but I think overall

00:39:12: people are again robotics are now acceptable in the marketplace compared

00:39:17: to what they were before and a lot of the risk factors are resolved or have been

00:39:22: resolved and when you look at the safety record within the robotics industry

00:39:27: compared to other industries and even automobiles and other things the safety

00:39:32: within the robotics industry is exceptional there's very few injuries

00:39:36: and and very few fatalities in robotics overall compared to even consumer

00:39:42: appliances or a bunch of other things so the the risk is not there from the

00:39:47: safety point of view for people who plan and deploy equipment properly.

00:39:52: Thank you very much what's on your agenda for the next week?

00:39:56: Interesting I'm following up on all the leads from from Automate frankly which

00:40:02: which is of investors or what? Well there are some investors there's some.

00:40:08: What is your hot lead? What is a hot lead for you?

00:40:11: Hot lead is a company that's in trouble and wants to grow their business and wants to get it rolling.

00:40:16: So most of my stuff is related to robot OEMs and integrators and helping them

00:40:21: although I do have a couple of end users. How many hot leads do you have?

00:40:25: Well I would say ones that are addressable okay that will be business in the next quarter

00:40:32: probably have at least 12 and for a small company like us that's pretty good.

00:40:37: So these leads will take some time to to evolve but I also had a number of existing

00:40:43: customers on the trade show floor so we continue to push that business forward so

00:40:46: I'm not concerned about growth for our business I'm concerned about being

00:40:51: responsive to the clients that are looking to get business done and also

00:40:56: trying to differentiate tire kickers versus people that are people of action

00:41:00: because that's always an interesting thing. At trade shows you have this this

00:41:04: thing called trade show hysteria or trade euphoria and it always sounds better

00:41:10: at the show and then reality sinks in but frankly unlike past shows the demand

00:41:16: for automation is so great right now that I see the the interest after the show

00:41:22: continuing to escalate and will continue for several years to come.

00:41:26: We wish you all the best too thank you very much and greetings to the USA.

00:41:30: Thanks pleasure to be with you again.

00:41:33: All the best. Thanks too.

00:41:35: Bye bye.

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