Discover what’s next for robotics safety - We embed TI in the robotics podcast

00:00:04: Robotic in the industry.

00:00:06: The podcast with Helmut Schmidt and Robert Weber.

00:00:11: Hello everybody, welcome to a new episode of our Robotics Podcast.

00:00:14: My name is Rolf Weber And I'm sitting today in Freising and my guests are Christon Morgensen, Kristen.

00:00:19: Welcome!

00:00:20: Hello robert nice to talk with you again.

00:00:22: It's always a pleasure

00:00:23: there.

00:00:23: thanks and Thomas Schneider.

00:00:25: welcome.

00:00:25: hello robert.

00:00:27: Before we start talking about safety, functional safety please introduce yourself briefly to the listeners Christian.

00:00:34: Please start.

00:00:35: Yeah so my name is Christian Mogensen.

00:00:37: I've been working at TI for eighteen years and in that time i have been working primarily with motor control communication functional safety And how does a TI components fit for robotic systems?

00:00:49: With these systems

00:00:50: Thomas.

00:00:52: Hello, my name is Thomas Schneider.

00:00:53: I'm systems engineer for industrial systems focusing on robotics and also the safety topic here.

00:01:01: I am working for TI now since twenty two years.

00:01:04: Let's do a quick recap.

00:01:06: when it comes to safety What are the most important industrial standards?

00:01:11: When it comes robots and safety

00:01:14: I think the basic standard, of course.

00:01:16: The IC-SX-Ti-One-Five-O-Eight, the industrial standard is one and then also the Industrial Machinery, ISO-Thirteen-Eyed-Four-Nine where the industrial product specific safety standards like for robots, the ISO-Ten-Two-Eighty, For example, for an industrial robot it's referencing to them.

00:01:35: Okay.

00:01:37: So when it comes to the standards what kind of trends do you see?

00:01:43: in safety and functional safety topics when it comes to the robot.

00:01:47: So I think if you look at the trends, they focus on safety is gotten to be more and more also from that Chinese vendors?

00:01:54: That they start to add a safety in their systems.

00:01:58: then we want to learn more and build more system so they can sell worldwide.

00:02:03: That's interesting because I had discussion with the Bosch guy And he responsible for all the whole safety topic environment.

00:02:10: And he told me that the Chinese are adding more and more rules on their existing standards when you want to enter the Chinese market, so there's not a question is European regulating the world?

00:02:22: The Chinese also editing more and

00:02:27: I mean, in the past they think there was no safety standard for mobile robot.

00:02:30: For example, and China.

00:02:31: so that you have to add now additional things.

00:02:35: but also as the Chinese sell into other areas on the world They had to implement the safety functions of their products.

00:02:46: standards when you want to enter as a European company in the Chinese market, so specialized safety standard.

00:02:53: When it comes to communication stuff

00:02:55: etc.,

00:02:56: So It's very interesting that there is rising regulation topic also in China?

00:03:01: Yeah I mean all of the ISO-TEN-TU-EIGHTeen has been revised and There are new revision now with additional safety requirements.

00:03:12: So come back to the trends, Christian.

00:03:13: Sorry

00:03:14: and I think The Trends is also.

00:03:15: for instance if you look at the AMR market i think it was a good topic To pick up Thomas on It right now?

00:03:20: The AMR Market or them the mobile robot market Is difficult to understand from customers which standard do actually Pick.

00:03:27: so what we see as the warehouse robots they are Actually using the ISO thirty

00:03:34: six Three six nine one four

00:03:35: exactly this One.

00:03:36: Thank You Tomas.

00:03:37: They use that As their base For That for the Warehouse Handling.

00:03:40: but This standard, basically you cannot take that and say okay I want to put it on a curb robot.

00:03:45: So there is a standard coming up for sidewalk curb robots.

00:03:50: That's in definition right now.

00:03:52: On top of this Right?

00:03:53: In the Robot ISO Organization The Working Group XIII And working group XIV Which basically defines standards For service robots Also Mobile Robots which are not covered by existing standards.

00:04:06: So as Thomas said right this market is moving along and also the standards are being revised now because there Is a need?

00:04:13: And it's not been covered yet.

00:04:15: I mean the three six nine one dash four actually is for driverless trucks.

00:04:19: so but There is no mobile robot standard, and therefore the customer

00:04:23: copy and paste

00:04:24: yeah exactly

00:04:26: What does that mean for ti

00:04:28: At the end of Thursday?

00:04:30: for TI, it means that we also as TI need to understand these standards.

00:04:33: To be on the forefront when We need to build new safety parts That we can achieve The safety goals and the safety levels that is needed For the coming systems.

00:04:43: And this Is Also why?

00:04:44: We as TI for instance I am participating in the TC two nine Nine In Germany for the ISO organization and Helping define an Understand.

00:04:52: what are the Standards What Are the Requirements do to ensure that we are also ready for the future.

00:05:00: I mean, what TI is doing actually?

00:05:02: so TI certifies their product not for a product safety standard like for an industrial robot, but what we do?

00:05:10: We certify our products only for the type A safety standard.

00:05:14: So for a basic safety standards like for the IC-SXT- one five oh eight four industrial applications and typically for ISO two six to six two four automotive applications so that all products cover both areas industrial end automotive.

00:05:28: And here The customer gets all needed safety collaterals from both sides.

00:05:33: actually That's also an advantage sometimes that he can pick additional information from the other world to convince them his.

00:05:43: assessor like two, for example and using both collaterals.

00:05:46: For the certification.

00:05:47: what we then do in addition is to these product or device certifications We also especially our team work on safety concepts kind of system element out-of-context where we take a specific application Like four motor control application for robot for example Or for safe sensing application And combined than several products from TI on a system level and work together with ToofSuite here on a system element out of context certification, where we certify this concept to get the Toofsuit which then helps customers easier go through his certification.

00:06:26: He has already some confidence that he will pass the certification as there is already a concept available.

00:06:32: Just to add on this one, right Thomas?

00:06:34: What we do is when you look at the V form of the safety model.

00:06:39: Right what We Do here Is we Look At The System And Also Pick Hardware.

00:06:43: But We Don't Do A Full Hardware.

00:06:45: We Do Specific Safety Subsystems Where We Analyze This Subsystem and Help The Customer Understand.

00:06:52: Does That Subsystem Fit His System?

00:06:54: How Can He Implement It In The System and What Are The Assumption Of Use that he Needs To Cover From the rest of this system to ensure that it fits his requirements.

00:07:03: And also, that's coming back to the discussion Tomas said right?

00:07:06: We certify the chips to a specific safety level and but we also try and work with the standards to understand what is needed at safety levels.

00:07:14: when you want do some new robots for instance I think the harshest standard today Iso ten two eighteen which is mandating you need to do cat three PLD or sale to HFT one which basically mean you need to do a redundant system and have specific amount of diagnostic coverage, ensure your fit number is correct.

00:07:36: And ensure your MTTFD number and PFH numbers fits those requirements in the A-standard.

00:07:44: This helps customers understand where they lie before starting getting a rough estimate?

00:07:50: Where are our parts in combination that can make very quick assessment?

00:07:55: top of flop and also the argumentation with turf why architecturally this works is already done.

00:08:03: You mentioned there's an increase in safety right?

00:08:06: And then last episode we talked about sensors, you said that will see more sensors.

00:08:11: I want to quickly come back to product perspective.

00:08:15: so what do products, when it comes to TI products and solutions.

00:08:21: You already mentioned in last episode of the discussion before that this safety module is coming into the main part?

00:08:27: And then there are some ambitious or some aims to distill or make safety more implicit application into the electronics.

00:08:37: or am I wrong exactly

00:08:38: so for the processors?

00:08:40: For example on Sitara processors?

00:08:42: on the Jacinta processors, we have added so called safety island.

00:08:47: So that is free from interference from the rest of the system.

00:08:50: You can implement a safety channel and do not need any more to have separate MCU next to main controller as it has its own memory or peripherals

00:09:01: etc.,

00:09:02: That's on processor side.

00:09:05: like our radar sensors for example they are also safety certified upto systematic capabilities.

00:09:11: So these can also be used now for safe radar sensing.

00:09:14: I mean, there is this new safety standard for radar sensors that I see six one four nine six dash five now.

00:09:22: so it's possible to use the radar sensors in a safety application not just LiDAR anymore like we had in the past where you have LiDARS sensor on front and back of your mobile robot for example.

00:09:33: Now the radar technology pre certified mm wave radar sensors with all the collaterals for it.

00:09:42: And

00:09:44: also, this is a huge step right?

00:09:46: Yes

00:09:47: Is It A Future Topic or in progress?

00:09:50: or where do we stand at the

00:09:51: moment?

00:09:52: I think it's already in progress.

00:09:53: Customers, they are integrating more and more of the safety module inside processing part for example is working on a motor control use case where the safety is integrated.

00:10:07: so

00:10:08: yeah this safety idea around there you need as mentioned earlier with the motor control right The system needs to be smaller.

00:10:16: So you cannot afford anymore to say, okay I do safety and then application.

00:10:21: Everything has its own processor every nice and good.

00:10:24: it's too expensive.

00:10:25: first of all because your not price competitive any more And You have the capability now with the Safety Documentation we provide To actually Say i can maybe take two channels so i Can Do The Application on One Safety Channel or?

00:10:40: external analog circuitry you need to put around, so still have your safety argumentation case.

00:10:46: And this is also sometimes using the written word of standards because the IEC-SX-Ti-One-Five-O-Eight and ISO-thirteen eight four nine has different definitions on how do understand redundancy?

00:10:59: Using those argumentations points we help our customer to understand How can a size minimize system build their best systems for end application that i had.

00:11:09: and this is where we see the next trends are coming.

00:11:12: And as Thomas said, right now a lot of times safety is you put a separate module that does the safety but eventually You need to go to the step of saying I need everything To be in a combined system on one PCB because i want to save size But I also want to safe cost and then at The end of day This module.

00:11:31: it's additional weight

00:11:34: And sometimes you don't have the size for it, like for the decentralized architectures.

00:11:38: For co-bots where we have to motor control inside that joint I mean You don't want actually put in every joint a separate safety module

00:11:47: and your working on or you're working together with customer on this topic?

00:11:51: How's status?

00:11:52: so We are both working with customers on it and we were working with two to do the architectural Architecturally right now.

00:11:59: We are at a level where we are very confident It will pass what we are.

00:12:04: I would say, one hundred percent sure it will pass.

00:12:06: It's more the written text.

00:12:08: how do you actually that?

00:12:10: The written texts is not misunderstandable and all the assumptions of use are done correctly or Expressed correctly.

00:12:16: that its understood what you need to do around.

00:12:19: because when you do That type of system it's a system You need to build.

00:12:24: it's not just the processor single module And your don't you need To think Of How Do i do the power supply to the power supply, to the processor.

00:12:32: How do I do that?

00:12:33: Power supply from this system down to the safety functions.

00:12:37: and how do i split everything?

00:12:45: real time diagnostic features that are non intrusive, all these things needs to be thought of.

00:12:50: And this is where we individually point by point walk through the steps and We have very compelling components with as Mattomas mentioned The safety documentation required To actually build these type of systems.

00:13:01: So there's a topic safety right?

00:13:04: What does safe communication look like when it comes to the robot?

00:13:09: so you already mention because It quite important that the communications also save.

00:13:14: So looking at safe communication, the biggest point with industrialists there is a definition called black channel.

00:13:21: Black Channel basically implies that you take the safety information and put it in the OC model.

00:13:29: so It has nothing to do with the physical layer Meaning.

00:13:32: did your center frame?

00:13:34: The way they're the protocol of the famous defined as that You can separate two different values While it's in the wire, its not safe or It is not safely done through the wire.

00:13:48: The safety happens In the processor.

00:13:50: One example here is FSOE.

00:13:52: so Functional Safety over EtherCAD for example Where you have your basic EtherCAT communication below And then on top of that You put the safety level The FSOe layer Which does the Safe Communication from the endpoint to end point.

00:14:07: Last year we recorded a lot of episodes When it comes to Cyber Resilience Act stuff.

00:14:12: So changing a little bit to focus from safety, but there are some points where the topics meet each other.

00:14:20: What kind of role does the cyber resilience play when it comes

00:14:26: I think not moving from safety to security.

00:14:29: I see it more as a combination, so there will be no safety anymore in the future without security.

00:14:34: So I mean security is already mentioned in the safety standards.

00:14:38: so that you also have your do your TARA analysis and look into those security topics.

00:14:44: And That's a big topic.

00:14:46: I'm in CRA at the moment.

00:14:48: It's a law, but it's not a standard so far.

00:14:51: So customers still have the problem to which standards should they refer too?

00:14:55: I mean there is a standard for automotive and then there is also security standard for industrial.

00:15:00: But the CRA actually is not exactly covering what in those standards.

00:15:04: here

00:15:04: robots are not critical right That is not.

00:15:10: so

00:15:10: depends.

00:15:11: I think if they, how they are connected?

00:15:13: There's more and more the connection to the cloud when you want to do predictive maintenance.

00:15:17: So then there are connected through outside that can be attacked.

00:15:21: It really depends on an independent system.

00:15:23: But i thought it was a discussion about your CE certification by yourself.

00:15:28: If You're Not A Crucial Or Not A Critical Part In The Beginning The Robots Were Part Of This.

00:15:34: You Are Not Allowed To Do Your CE By Yourself.

00:15:37: You Need To Hire Somebody Who checks the CE for you.

00:15:40: And now, I think the robots are out of it and You can do your own CE at The end.

00:15:45: Yeah but also components than digital Components MCUs.

00:15:49: they're mentioned in the CRA so They need to fulfill that.

00:15:53: What does this mean for TI?

00:15:55: I

00:15:57: mean, our MCUs for example.

00:15:59: they are ready for security.

00:16:00: They have all the features already implemented like secure boot and the security algorithms and so on.

00:16:07: i think we're good prepared here with our MCU and process support portfolio as they have already All those requirements inside.

00:16:15: you want to add something Christian?

00:16:16: And also what do from TI?

00:16:18: We had a colleague who basically works only on CRA or very focused on CRA that we as a TI, as a company have a strategy.

00:16:26: How do we need to get there?

00:16:27: And he also works a lot with the lawmaking of the CRA that we understand early what is happening so that we can quickly react and we have very good understanding on What does it mean for us

00:16:39: here?

00:16:39: There's complete task force team at TI.

00:16:43: only covering the CRA topic.

00:16:46: I want you come back because You mentioned in the beginning That We will see an increase Of safety topics.

00:16:51: right We'll see more sensors.

00:16:53: What kind of product, what kinds of sensors do we will see in the future?

00:16:58: So I think Thomas already mentioned once how let him continue on the topic with...I think it's a little bit look-of.

00:17:04: is it sensor for perception and this surrounding or is that as censored measuring force tactile these type of sensors where you want to mimic the touch And those two sensor types have differences in use?

00:17:18: case right but Those points are needed.

00:17:21: that, for instance.

00:17:21: That a robot if it has hand and grabs you then doesn't crush right?

00:17:26: These type of things.

00:17:27: And this is why I believe more sensors and also sensor fusion models where you do a combination of sensors because one sensor does not do all.

00:17:35: For instance i think the good example with cameras.

00:17:39: Cameras are super nice until your turn off light.

00:17:42: What to we now?

00:17:43: let the robots stand still cause he can see or add radar sensor where you can say, Oh I know what the distance is.

00:17:51: Or do you do a camera?

00:17:53: Where have some type of night vision and how to that data And i think we will see more sensors We'll see more combinations of sensors To try achieve something extraordinary or ensure The robot can operate longer.

00:18:06: What

00:18:06: does this mean for TI?

00:18:07: More sensors Different centers.

00:18:10: I mean for the sensors, it's a huge area.

00:18:13: It starts already at the lowest level of current sensing.

00:18:16: You can do your motor control with two currents measuring the two phases and calculate this third phase but For safety you might maybe want to measure all three phases.

00:18:26: So we have an additional Delta Sigma modulator on the current sensing side And that continues goes upto outside.

00:18:35: so like MMWave radar cameras Where you also then need more to detect.

00:18:42: really and in the past We just had that there is an object maybe in front of a mobile robot Maybe now.

00:18:48: You want to detect?

00:18:49: Is it a human person or is It a humanoid, and Then for different use cases The robot would may be slowed down when it's a human Person whereas maybe it will continue with the same speed if its another robot Because that's not so critical and I think the accuracy will increase in the future.

00:19:08: And then also, they use cases because AI is becoming more important And there is a technical report available.

00:19:23: I mean, it's TR five four six nine how to use AI in safety functions.

00:19:28: and then there is another safety standard in the works at the moment IC twenty two for forty where that topic is exactly discussed How To Use AI In Safety Functions?

00:19:39: And i think going to The Future with Those Standards Coming i Think The Sensor Fusion Portion Will Also Be A Topic That You Have kind of a redundant system, two different sensing technologies combining maybe the radar sensor with a camera that you get to distance and speed.

00:19:58: And position off the object from the radar sensors.

00:20:01: then you can get picture and do classification for example also for different performances.

00:20:10: so cameras cannot detect a glass door whereas radars can detect it if the light goes off.

00:20:18: The radar can detect, camera can't detect so that you have kind of redundancy also with a fusion.

00:20:23: Exactly when it comes to your customers.

00:20:26: do you feel an uncertainty by our customers?

00:20:30: When it comes safety for safety not today but maybe tomorrow.

00:20:35: So I think right now, there is a lot of uncertainty.

00:20:37: And also think where it mentions before with the two working group for the mobile platforms, right?

00:20:42: There are to new standards trying to help customers understand better.

00:20:45: which safety standard do I need to do and what safety levels Do i need to when I want to build specific robot?

00:20:51: A second piece as well For instance The New Clid on the block.

00:20:54: we mentioned a couple times humanoid.

00:20:56: Right Now Humanoid doesn't really have our standard so that best you can say I take their most stringent Standard Which Is the Robot arm standards of the ISO, ten to eighteen.

00:21:05: But also there is a working group for instance, working on the legged robots that I saw VD twenty five seven eight five dash one which basically also starts going into the direction of what do you need to do with the humanoid?

00:21:19: What's different and we will see more and this coming at their standard organization.

00:21:25: well go after an understand What is missing that it's easy to know what standard do I need?

00:21:31: And i think the biggest problem is figuring out.

00:21:33: What standard Do you use for my use case?

00:21:35: because It's a little bit The Wild Wild West at the moment, To be honest about it...

00:21:39: I mean the Electrobot I Think Is A Different Topic Because Here Your Safety Functions Need To Be Completely Different.

00:21:45: You Need To Fail Kind Of Safe Operationally Whereas For A Mobile Robot could just turn off power and then it stands.

00:21:53: And, uh... It's in a safe state but for a humanoid or lagged robot.

00:21:56: if I shut down power with an STO or Safe Break function the robot would fall down and maybe could even still hurt another person.

00:22:05: so that is completely different.

00:22:08: Yeah you need to somehow figure out how do you fall safely?

00:22:11: Yeah

00:22:12: yeah absolutely.

00:22:13: At the end what are your prediction when comes to safety?

00:22:16: What will we see next year?

00:22:19: Christian first.

00:22:20: So I definitely see that safety is getting more and more critical for all robot applications, but even looking at appliances Even appliances robots start having safety standards.

00:22:29: That they need to do.

00:22:30: They are not a stringent But they still exist And there's still their and i think we will See More and more this safety coming For everything thats autonomously moving around Because you need To be sure if something happens it Will go in the safe state where It doesn't hurt someone.

00:22:47: This Is The Critical Thing.

00:22:50: What I see right now is a lot of the robots that are built today.

00:22:53: Are focused a lot on the factories, right?

00:22:55: In the factory it's a known environment.

00:22:57: you can train to people.

00:22:59: You can let say reduce a little bit The safety level because you're in an trained environment.

00:23:03: Right as soon as you want to put this robot in a household There is a whole new safety level.

00:23:09: you need to think off problems That you could.

00:23:12: you cannot train everyone.

00:23:13: Yeah, the robot needs to by itself be safe around people.

00:23:18: and what does that look like?

00:23:19: And I think this is still not figured out, but it's something that will need to be figured out.

00:23:25: A lot of the new standard coming now are working on it.

00:23:28: Thomas you want your prediction?

00:23:31: Yeah i think what we'll see in future definitely having more AI used for safety functions so... Can give

00:23:38: an example What do you there

00:23:41: For cameras for the object detection, for example to detect if it's a person or if It's another mobile robot.

00:23:48: Or with radar sensor I mean The radar sensors they even can't take the heart rate of a person other breathing.

00:23:54: so that could be used in Combination with AI that you can decide on if the person is coming closer to you.

00:24:02: And I mean, the safety standards are in the works for that use cases and as AI is coming more and more in all areas of the robot.

00:24:10: So i think definitely it will also come further a safety portion.

00:24:14: Thanks a lot guys.

00:24:15: It was pleasure As always.

00:24:17: Thank you

00:24:18: Robert.