Robotics as a Service – not very popular in the USA

00:00:00: Hi, Robert hier.

00:00:01: Dieser Podcast wird euch präsentiert von der Hannover Messe.

00:00:04: Wir sagen vielen herzlichen Dank an die Kollegen in Hannover und jetzt geht's los.

00:00:09: Robotik in der Industrie.

00:00:15: Der Podcast mit Helmut Schmidt und Robert Weber.

00:00:18: Hallo everybody and welcome to a new episode of our Robotics Podcast.

00:00:26: Mein Name ist Robert Weber und wir sind wieder in der USA,

00:00:30: mit Stuess, die mit Stuess mit dem Podcast nennen.

00:00:34: Danke, danke für das mal wieder.

00:00:36: Wir haben schon den Thema Robotik als Service gesprochen.

00:00:39: Ich denke, zwei Episodes wieder.

00:00:41: Aber heute wollen wir ein bisschen mehr in Details gehen.

00:00:45: Stuess, die USA, aus meiner Sicht ist ein Land der finanziellen Institutionen.

00:00:52: Es gibt viele Transen, Banken und Finanzverwaltungen aus der USA.

00:00:56: Und du sagst, dass Robotik als Service in der USA schwierig ist.

00:01:01: Warum ist das?

00:01:02: Ja, so ist es oftmals, weil es so viele finanzielle Chancen gibt in der USA.

00:01:08: Und auch unsere Taxi-Löse sind hier anders als andere Länder.

00:01:12: Also, viele andere Unternehmen aus anderen Ländern haben in der USA gegenseitig gegenseitig gesehen.

00:01:17: Und gesagt, es sollte einfach sein, dass Robotik als Service sein sollte.

00:01:21: Denn sie haben Software als Service aus großen Softwareverwaltungen,

00:01:25: die wir nicht name by name haben.

00:01:26: Aber die meisten haben ihre Sachen auf unsere Computer zu tun.

00:01:30: Aber das, was Robotik als Service ist, ist nicht so leicht und strahlend.

00:01:36: Ich meine, es ist sicherlich attraktiv von der Investor-Sprache.

00:01:40: Es ist attraktiv von den Kunden, die es an den Stellenhäuser oder die Resellern und Integrations-Sprache beizubekommen.

00:01:47: Denn als Servicemodell ist es ein Kamouflage von einem Liste oder eine Rent-Zone-Situation.

00:01:55: Es ist einfach und leicht zu hören.

00:01:57: Es gibt eine reichere Revenue, die attraktiv ist.

00:02:00: Und die Herausforderung, die zu sein, ist, wenn man über nonstandortische Equipment sprechen will,

00:02:05: ist Rentalservice und Liste-Service das beste, wenn es ein fixes Asset ist.

00:02:12: Es ist ein Auto, wenn man eine Auto rennt oder ein Liste-Servorchtruck hat.

00:02:18: Und es hat eine durchehrliche Leistung.

00:02:20: Und man kann es dann auf eine Flasche und einen Liste holen können.

00:02:23: All das ist gut.

00:02:25: Es sind kommunale Businessmodelle in den US, die du denkst, du kannst das aufhören.

00:02:31: Aber die Probleme starten, wenn du mehr tiefstereinander schauen beginnst,

00:02:36: wie die Lösungen, die sich beobachten, sind.

00:02:39: Die Lösungen sind nicht necessarily easy zu installieren.

00:02:44: Du musst nicht die Liste holen und starten.

00:02:46: Das ist nicht ein Pluck- und Plade, oder?

00:02:48: Ja, und das ist nicht der Fall.

00:02:50: Du musst die Höhle holen und die Konkrete installieren.

00:02:53: Du musst die Utilien erlangen.

00:02:54: Manchmal gibt es aufsichtige Integration und andere Arbeit, die zu tun werden.

00:02:58: Und das ist nicht reichern.

00:03:00: Und das ist nicht einfach, weil das Labor ist.

00:03:04: Und es gibt andere Services, die es in die Höhle gehen.

00:03:07: Und dann, wenn du zum Beispiel auf das Spiel gehst, hopfst du, dass die Termine beobachten,

00:03:13: um die Spezifikaten und die Wattenspfeife zu machen, die in den Plätschern und in den Plätschern gut gesetzt sind.

00:03:20: Und das System ist verwendet, das macht wieder eine sehr schwierige Integration.

00:03:24: Denn das System sollte bereits ein Faktor- und Verkaufstest vor dem, was geimpft wurde, passen.

00:03:30: Und dann, wenn es geimpft und installiert ist, muss es ein Sitzverkaufstest passen.

00:03:35: Bevor der Liste ist technisch möglich zu sein.

00:03:39: So, das ganze Zeit, die Kunden sagen, hey, ich werde nicht für das payen, bis es läuft.

00:03:44: Das ist, ich verstehe, oder?

00:03:47: Und dann, likewise, wenn es läuft, was machst du, was macht man mit anderen Dingen, die werden gemacht?

00:03:54: Wie die Ermittlungen.

00:03:56: Ermittlungen auf einem Forktruck oder Fahrzeuge sind ziemlich langweilig.

00:03:59: Mit einem System, das kann das System vary, wie das geht, um die Liste zu nehmen oder nicht.

00:04:05: Oder ein Teil des Räumens oder nicht.

00:04:07: Aber du hast jetzt über Roboterbremsen gesprochen.

00:04:11: Was für AGVs und AMRs?

00:04:13: Ist das nicht leichter?

00:04:14: Ja, es ist sicherlich leichter.

00:04:16: Und es ist sicherlich, du hast eine Fliege verabschiedet.

00:04:19: Und die Beteiligten können nicht so gut wie ein Roboter werden.

00:04:23: Denn sie können ein Job machen, ohne dass sie viel Spezial- und Tooling hat.

00:04:28: Oder die Tooling ist transportabel.

00:04:31: Und es kann auf und auf, so ein Ding.

00:04:33: So, ja, das kann noch arbeiten.

00:04:36: Aber auch mit dem, der Herausforderung, der es gibt, ist, dass am Ende eines Autos eine finanzielle Entscheidung ist.

00:04:46: Ja, es gibt Technologie, und ja, es gibt alles andere Dinge, die müssen passieren.

00:04:50: Aber wenn das System komponent und möglich ist, mit der Qualität und der Raten,

00:04:56: dann kommt es all um die Finanzierung.

00:04:59: Und zu deinem Punkt, da gibt es viele Möglichkeiten, wenn du dich in den USA bekommst.

00:05:03: So, mit den Möglichkeiten, gibt es Risiken.

00:05:07: Und die Kosten und die Rettung von diesen Möglichkeiten können finanziell im Risikusprüfungsverband bemerken.

00:05:15: So, sagen wir es, dass die Integrator die Organisation, die die Liesung macht, sagt,

00:05:21: hey, lehst das System oder benutzt es das System als Service oder Roboter als Service,

00:05:26: dann haben wir uns ein Subscription und du rufst das System.

00:05:30: Das ist alles gut, bis etwas falsch geht, wie die Kunden die Veränderungen über ihre Geschäftsfwatung beenden,

00:05:36: und sie senden die Dinge zurück.

00:05:37: Dann musst du dann figuren, wie du dieses somewhat customisierte System redeployst.

00:05:42: Die andere Herausforderung ist die Kollektionen.

00:05:44: Viele Unternehmen wollen keine reoccurringen Wettbewerbsplätze,

00:05:46: weil auf der Balance Schicht es noch die Lieste zeigt.

00:05:50: So, in order to get back to the financial side, you would have had to, in the U.S.,

00:05:58: you file what's called a UCC-1 document that validates that the integrator, the producer, or the owner of the system still owns it,

00:06:06: even though it's on somebody else's floor.

00:06:09: Well, the second, you execute a UCC-1 and post it, it shows the liability against the company,

00:06:15: and it's a publicly viewable thing.

00:06:18: So, if that company is working on getting financing, your robot as a service or system as a service

00:06:24: is out there visible to the marketplace, that there's a liability there.

00:06:28: But what is your opinion?

00:06:29: Why do international companies and vessel believe that the robotic as a service model will work in the U.S. market?

00:06:35: Because do they don't listen to you as an expert?

00:06:39: No, I think it's everybody wants to try something and there's nothing wrong with trying it.

00:06:44: It's just we're far enough into the market now after people trying to do it for arguably more than 10 years.

00:06:50: I think we're deep enough into the market that they've got some experience.

00:06:53: Plus, for an international company, it looks good if you can move it to your U.S. subsidiary,

00:06:58: have your U.S. subsidiary take care of all the risk.

00:07:01: But robots as a service for something that's exported from one country to another is difficult,

00:07:07: because your record of import and ownership, and again, what do you do when you have to go take the system out?

00:07:13: What do you do if the customer fails and doesn't stay alive?

00:07:17: What does the customer do if the robot as a service or the system as a service company fails or sells your lease?

00:07:25: Suddenly, you're out of control along with the complications that many times you monitor the system's health through an Internet connection.

00:07:35: And again, a lot of companies are reluctant to add that idea of being plugged into the cloud and all the issues going with cybersecurity and these kinds of things.

00:07:45: So I think what started out as a clever idea and maybe something interesting and say, hey, it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, must be a duck.

00:07:53: By comparing it to automobiles and pork trucks and other things like that, I think was wasn't necessarily true.

00:08:00: But is it a problem, the robotic as a service model or is it a fundamental problem with the business?

00:08:07: In my mind, it's a business issue, because there's fundamentals that are not addressed.

00:08:13: And again, a lot of companies don't like reoccurring fees, they don't like connectivity to the cloud, they don't like the risk of what happens if something goes sideways in the deal.

00:08:23: So all these risks, and most companies make either no decision or change their decision away from robots as a service.

00:08:31: And you're seeing it because there's companies that have been robots as a service that have been failing.

00:08:35: And there's been some just in the last two months.

00:08:38: And likewise, we're finding out that the equipment is not as marketable as they thought when they tried to move it from one client to another client.

00:08:46: What about the banks? What is their opinion?

00:08:49: So, the banks opinion varies depending on the relationship they have with the customer.

00:08:55: So if the customer already has debt, already owes the bank money, oftentimes the bank has first call on, is that organization allowed to borrow from somebody else.

00:09:07: Because they don't want to have their risk diluted by some other financier getting into that particular company, they want to make sure they're secure.

00:09:15: So some banks will actually prohibit customers from going out and doing robots as a service or other types of subordinate financing.

00:09:23: The other thing is, is that the rates that are being offered by the service providers or the robot system providers may not be competitive to just straight out lease them out.

00:09:36: And in fact, they're just fronting a bank.

00:09:39: You know, bank rates are still going to be better.

00:09:41: So sometimes, especially with larger companies,

00:09:44: larger companies have their own lease access

00:09:48: that is more financially beneficial

00:09:51: than robots as a service without all the other tentacles

00:09:54: grabbing hold of them that they don't want to have to deal with.

00:09:57: - We know that from the forklift market, right?

00:10:00: - Yes, yes.

00:10:01: And then the other thing is the tax laws here are different.

00:10:04: You know, directly related to the banking issue.

00:10:07: So when you acquire a piece of capital equipment,

00:10:10: you depreciate it against your taxes

00:10:12: and you can write it off over three to five years,

00:10:16: whatever the useful life of that asset is by the IRS rules.

00:10:20: But there's a special clause in the US,

00:10:22: it's IRS section 179,

00:10:25: which allows you with,

00:10:27: if you have the right profitability in the company,

00:10:30: it allows you to purchase capital equipment.

00:10:33: And as long as it's installed by December 31st

00:10:36: of the year of your taxes that you're doing,

00:10:39: you can write off that piece of equipment 100%

00:10:43: in one shot and not spread it out over five years.

00:10:45: - That's interesting.

00:10:47: - Yeah, and a lot of companies

00:10:49: that aren't used to doing business in the States

00:10:51: and don't understand the tax side of the business

00:10:54: don't realize that that's out there.

00:10:55: And that's one of the reasons that in the fourth quarter,

00:10:58: in the United States, there's more capital equipment purchased

00:11:01: in the fourth quarter than any other quarter.

00:11:04: 'Cause companies are looking to say,

00:11:05: gee, what's my profitability

00:11:07: and what's my budget that I've got in my system for CapEx

00:11:12: and can I spend it and can I write it all off in one shot?

00:11:15: So you see a significant increase in drive

00:11:19: to sell equipment in the fourth quarter,

00:11:21: which also goes along with why the trade shows

00:11:23: are in the fourth quarter.

00:11:24: And there's a whole bunch of other reasons,

00:11:26: especially in capital equipment,

00:11:27: like machine tools and that kind of thing.

00:11:29: At IMTS and Fabtech and PacExpo,

00:11:32: the three big shows this fall,

00:11:34: people are lined up ready to spend money

00:11:36: trying to get it in before December 31st

00:11:39: to take advantage of the tax situation.

00:11:41: - So robotic asset solvers will never come?

00:11:44: - I don't know that it will never come.

00:11:47: I never say never 'cause there's always been issues,

00:11:51: but it's a long shot at best.

00:11:53: And then sometimes the companies

00:11:55: that are trying to do robots as a service,

00:11:57: it's their last gas at trying to get some kind of money

00:12:01: if they don't have good financial backing.

00:12:04: And that in itself is a risk.

00:12:06: And again, we've had a number of companies

00:12:08: that have evaporated lately that have failed.

00:12:11: So I personally believe, and there's evidence to support it,

00:12:16: that robot as a service is a, we'll call it a FAD,

00:12:20: it was an experiment.

00:12:22: The experiment has arguably not been successful

00:12:25: or otherwise you see a lot more of it,

00:12:27: but the other side of it is there's an opportunity.

00:12:30: If people understand how to deliver the equipment

00:12:34: and fit inside of all the rules and all the options,

00:12:38: then you might be successful.

00:12:39: So if you have a piece of automation, robot, AMR, whatever,

00:12:43: that can be highly standardized

00:12:45: and can be moved from company to company easily

00:12:49: and can be in fact pushed off a truck

00:12:51: and just started up and go.

00:12:52: And there are systems out there that do that.

00:12:54: There's a number of small cobot arc welding systems

00:12:57: and other systems now that in fact are that way.

00:13:00: So if you can get it to that stage, then yeah, it's possible,

00:13:03: but robot as a service has to be competitive

00:13:07: with all the other financial choices that the customer has

00:13:10: or restrictions that the customer has.

00:13:13: - So do you see other markets in the world where it can work?

00:13:17: For example, in Europe or Asia?

00:13:19: - So I'm not familiar with their tax codes

00:13:22: and things that go on there.

00:13:24: The other thing is depending on the size of the company

00:13:27: and the country and where everything's located,

00:13:29: it may be difficult to manage differences in the laws

00:13:33: 'cause anytime you're doing cross-border work

00:13:35: from one country to another,

00:13:37: you have to pay very close attention

00:13:38: to the international commercial issues.

00:13:42: So it, like I said, nothing is impossible.

00:13:45: The question is, is it low enough risk

00:13:48: for the customers to say yes

00:13:50: without everything else getting in the way?

00:13:52: And there's more customers that decide

00:13:54: not to do something because of risk

00:13:57: than any other reason for not automating.

00:14:00: So how do you make it easy for the customer?

00:14:03: How do you make it easy to protect from the internet issues?

00:14:07: How do you make it easy to manage

00:14:10: so that everybody's happy?

00:14:12: And right now, most companies offering robots as a service

00:14:16: while it sounds good has not been practical

00:14:19: or not lived up to its ease of use business model.

00:14:23: And do you think that maybe AMR's AGV

00:14:26: will be the first applications

00:14:28: when it comes to robotics as a service?

00:14:31: - So they wouldn't be the first

00:14:32: because robots as a service have been out there

00:14:34: before there was AMRs all over the place.

00:14:36: And people have--

00:14:37: - But maybe beneficial.

00:14:39: - Yeah, and maybe beneficial again

00:14:41: because you're working with a product

00:14:43: that's a highly standardized product

00:14:45: and there's multiples of them.

00:14:48: There's copies and some warehouses could have 10

00:14:51: to a hundred of them and that makes that kind of attractive.

00:14:54: So that's a possibility plus you do have evolving software

00:14:59: consistently in an AMR system

00:15:02: because you're adding new SKUs to the system

00:15:05: on a regular basis,

00:15:06: you're adding all kinds of other stuff

00:15:08: on a frequent basis that may require touches

00:15:11: from the outside.

00:15:12: Likewise, AI enabled systems may be able

00:15:17: to have subscription services

00:15:18: that are somewhat like robots as a service

00:15:21: with more services as a subscription

00:15:25: for making incremental improvements in the system

00:15:27: because one of the benefits of cloud computing

00:15:30: and AI is big data.

00:15:33: And big data may not necessarily always be on-prem

00:15:37: at the customer.

00:15:38: - Exactly.

00:15:39: - And likewise, the customer may not have the ability

00:15:41: to assimilate all the data

00:15:43: and work the models and those kinds of things.

00:15:46: But again, that's a,

00:15:47: maybe it's a periodic connection,

00:15:49: maybe it's monthly, quarterly, annually,

00:15:52: that's something that could work.

00:15:54: - But what do your customers want

00:15:56: when it comes to finance a robot?

00:15:58: They want to pay cash or what is?

00:16:01: (laughs)

00:16:02: - Yeah, good question.

00:16:03: It depends on their culture sometimes.

00:16:05: There are some groups of people

00:16:08: that actually prefer to buy in cash,

00:16:10: but that's difficult to do.

00:16:12: But yeah, they want a transaction that's simple,

00:16:15: that's easy to manage,

00:16:17: that doesn't have a lot of thought behind it.

00:16:19: They don't want something

00:16:20: they have to worry about every single month

00:16:22: from a cash flow perspective.

00:16:24: So it's really about making the financial people happy.

00:16:27: 'Cause again, I'll go back to one of my earlier statements.

00:16:30: No matter how cool the technology is

00:16:33: or how much the benefit may be perceived

00:16:35: of having subscriptions and other things like that,

00:16:38: it's just more work to do monthly

00:16:41: and all the invoicing and payments and collections

00:16:45: and what happens when collections go sideways.

00:16:48: All of those are issues that customers prefer not to deal with.

00:16:53: And I've talked to big companies and small

00:16:56: from major corporations to small mall and pawn shops.

00:17:00: And none of them like to deal with a reoccurring fee

00:17:04: or subscriptions or anything that's outside

00:17:06: of their scope of control.

00:17:08: And the more risk adverse they are,

00:17:10: again, the less likely they are to say yes.

00:17:13: So what is your advice to the robotics companies?

00:17:16: - Well, if they're serious about, you know,

00:17:18: work on not only the content of the system

00:17:22: to solve the customer's problem,

00:17:23: that's the first thing of course,

00:17:24: you gotta make sure it works.

00:17:25: - Yeah, sure.

00:17:26: - But how do you make it modular

00:17:28: and easy from an installation, de-installation point of view?

00:17:32: So you don't lose time, money and effort

00:17:34: taking things in and out.

00:17:36: And is there a CapEx model that works

00:17:40: as an option for the customer?

00:17:42: And then you offer still robots as a service

00:17:44: who let the customer make that decision.

00:17:46: I think that's a pragmatic way to approach it.

00:17:49: But also they need to recognize and interview

00:17:52: and talk to their customers about the financial side

00:17:55: to understand it before they make an offer.

00:17:58: Because a lot of times systems integrators,

00:18:01: robot companies, et cetera,

00:18:02: they're all about the technology.

00:18:04: They'll talk about technology all day long.

00:18:06: They'll talk about return on investments

00:18:08: and speed and throughput and all this other kind of stuff.

00:18:10: But they don't talk about the commercial impact.

00:18:13: And I strongly encourage that to happen

00:18:15: 'cause most of the time the customers,

00:18:16: when they have not decided to do something

00:18:19: and the selling company is frustrated

00:18:21: 'cause they can't get an answer,

00:18:23: it's actually because the selling company

00:18:25: hasn't asked the right question

00:18:27: and solved the right problem

00:18:29: that the customer is most worried about.

00:18:31: It's noise.

00:18:33: And you've gotta really pay attention to the whole customer,

00:18:36: not just the technical side or the throughput side

00:18:40: of what they're trying to achieve in the plan

00:18:42: 'cause it's a financial deal.

00:18:44: - Stu, thank you very much for your insight

00:18:47: about the US market when it comes to robotics as a service.

00:18:51: Thank you very much and all the best

00:18:53: and greetings to the USA.

00:18:55: - Thanks, appreciate your time

00:18:56: and we'll talk to you again soon.

00:18:58: - Bye bye.

00:18:58: (upbeat music)

00:19:02: (upbeat music)

00:19:05: (upbeat music)

00:19:07: (upbeat music)

00:19:10: (soft music)